ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
BEXAR COUNTY HISTORIAL COMMISSION
INTERVIEW WITH TERRELL (MAVERICK) WEBB
Interviewer: Brooke Allison
Date: January 4, 1977
Place: Austin, Texas, Mrs. Webb's home.
(Mrs. Webb is the widow of the late Maury Maverick. The restoration of La Villita was virtually completed while Maverick was Mayor. Later, Terrell Maverick married the now deceased historian, Walter Prescott Webb.)
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ALLISON: Mrs. Webb, what do you think was the inspiration for the restoration of La Villita?
WEBB: Well, I think the inspiration really was just Maury's inborn love of San Antonio, and he, he happened to have heard while he was Mayor that there was going to be a sale or something unusual was going on, and they were going to level the Villita area as it had become a slum, you know. The area did look pretty awful with the old run-down houses and mud holes. There were old iron beds and all kinds of rubbish strung around. Maury got the idea that this might be a chance and time if he worked right quickly to save it. And, that was in 1939 when he had become Mayor of San Antonio. Of course, everybody had known that those really historic properties were there, but this was a chance, maybe, to do something about it. That was it, not long after he was Mayor of San Antonio in May 1939.
ALLISON: All right, do you think the parking lot was just kind of urban renewal, tearing it down, and this (La Villita) was just some restoration?
WEBB: Well . . . no, but as well as I can recall, he traded other city property to the local Public Service Company for the site, and on October 12 secured the adoption of the Villita Ordinance, which declared among its high purposes "the promotion of peace, friendship, and justice between the United States of America and all other nations in the Western Hemisphere." With this ordinance as a basis, the National Youth Administration put up about $100,000; the city, its share of $10,000; and then about 110 youths were employed in the restoration work. There is a complete explanation of the history of this project prepared by the W.P.A. called "Old Villita." Maverick is quoted as saying that "the area was restored to what it always was--a village of plain, simple people with architecture indigenous to the soil of San Antonio and Texas."
ALLISON: Had he (Maverick) been active with the Conservation Society?
WEBB: Yes, of course, more or less active. At that time, there were practically no men connected with the Conservation Society. We were just a group of women. And I think I told you, I may have told you at one time, when Maury was Mayor of San Antonio he didn't know whether to God bless the Conservation women or God damn them, because whenever he needed them they were right there and simply terrific, but whenever they jumped on him they were awful! So, he didn't know what to do (laugh) about them. But he loved them, every one. As a matter of fact, one time he said he always hated to go to their meetings, because one member would always sit on the front row and correct him if he made a mistake, whenever he (laugh) would speak to them. It might have been Mrs. Farnsworth. (Laugh.) I don't know that I've answered your question particularly, but then he knew that something was happening to the area and, and as far as I know parking places were not as necessary nor as popular as they are now. But the old houses were going to be demolished, and that was the thing that worried him. And, he thought, well, we've got to do something about it and act quickly, and he did; and he did whatever he thought and apparently was legal and right, and that's the way the city got it--quick action!
ALLISON: Why did he apply for money from the NYA? When he had been in Congress, he had, gotten money from the WPA for the River.
WEBB: Well, because the NYA may not have started as early as the PWA, the Public Works Administration. I'm not sure of all the details, but we knew very well the head of the NYA. He was one of our most intimate friends. And Maury started a, some sort of a school or some sort of an effort there that the NYA was doing where they could bring in talented or even untalented people to teach those young people who needed education in some sort of a trade or art, and that's exactly what happened! And you know, Mary Green was one of the teachers there; you should talk to her. Many of the people around San Antonio taught in the school in pottery, or . . . You can ask Mary Green about it because she made some beautiful potteries and, in fact, they . . . I've even gotten a few plates that they gave me, that they made there. Their copper work was wonderful. All the tiles in the project--patios and houses were made there.
ALLISON: Who did Maury know in the NYA so intimately?
WEBB: Aubrey Williams, the administrator.
ALLISON: How did he know him?
WEBB: Well, we had known him for some time. Maury was interested in that sort of thing, had voted for it in Washington, and we knew him when we were there in Washington. You, you want to remember that we were there at the very depth of the Depression, and he was a member of Congress. And so, he was interested in what Aubrey and the NYA and the CCC people were doing, and not only were they political friends, we were very close personally. And Mrs. Williams is still living over in Alabama, I think, and that's how it was. It was a valid request, and the NYA wanted requests like that. I remember the day, we had been in Chicago and when we finally had the Williams conference in St. Louis, it was the next day after the Democratic National Convention. When Maury came back, I never saw a man as happy in my life because he had gotten $70 or $75,000 or more grant from Williams right that day and we came on home to San Antonio. I mean, to the allocation and then the city had to do its part.
ALLISON: What did the city of San Antonio have to do to . . .
WEBB: I don't know for sure. There was a legal procedure that was carried out.
ALLISON: . . . implement the program?
WEBB: I, I, I can't answer you, properly. You would have to ask certainly the City Clerk, and I understand from people who have asked the City Clerk anything about it, they don't seem to know very much about it. But they are bound to have kept statistics, any city is bound to have and things and history of the town and . . .
ALLISON: Well, what about the property of La Villita? Who owned it?
WEBB: I don't know exactly who owned it but I think the Public Service Company did; Mr. Tuttle headed it. But I do know that the way that the city was supposed to do it, I'm not too sure of this, I can't back it up, but Maury said cities were not supposed to buy properties. They could do what we call barter and exchanging. They could exchange certain properties for other properties. Now, what the exchange was, I do not know, but I do know that the city legally got control of the property, and I do think they may have, the owners may have gotten some other properties in some other places, like in streets and in things like that. I'm not sure about that. And for that, you would have to go to the Clerk or the Public Service Board. But, I do know that the Public Service company figured in this.
ALLISON: You're, you're correct.
WEBB: I hope so.
ALLISON: All right, could you tell me about where any other monies came from besides the NYA?
WEBB: The only other real grant that I know we got was $25,000 from the Carnegie Foundation, and I think he got the inspiration for that request from, from the fact that his aunt Ellen Maury Slayden, the wife of Congressman James L. Slayden, knew Mr. Carnegie very well and was interested in libraries. So she had gotten the original grant of the money to build the downtown, the old Public Library, where the Circus Collection is now, you know.
ALLISON: Yes, the first Public Library.
WEBB: And the first money came through Aunt Ellen Slayden from Mr. Carnegie from the Foundation. So Maury thought he could, he would ask and he would set up what he thought would be, an important Texas section of the Public Library and have it in La Villita in the, in the big house. That's the reason he built that great, the big building. I forget what they call it . . .
ALLISON: Bolivar Building?
WEBB: Yes, that's it. Where the museum is now. They put the library section in there, downstairs where the museum is now in La Villita. And upstairs is a hall where you would have meetings and things like that. It's really quite a large place. And they, one of the James girls, Mrs. Carl Groos was the first librarian. You want to remember that. Well, anyway, she was the librarian there, and got paid through the library department, and she stayed there for a long time. And then they were worried as there wasn't anymore money to buy anymore books from the city. The city didn't or weren't in the purchasing business, and there was a problem along around that time, too, about school books and things like that, and Maury was not Mayor anymore. So they decided to move the books back to the Main Library. And now the Bolivar's first floor has sort of been turned slowly into a, a museum. And the Conservation Society, too, for putting those pictures of the Mayors of San Antonio in that place. I nearly died when they redid the City Hall of San Antonio, and it looks like a movie palace or a public . . . I don't know what. They took all of the interesting pictures out, the Mayors from the very first on down to the present one and then didn't know what to do with them. So as they didn't know what to do with them, the Conservation Society, God bless them, offered to take care of them. And they have them all over there in that, in the Conservation Museum in the first floor of the, of the La Villita Building. And it gives the place a real feeling of, of continuity. But, if you walk into City Hall now, you run into something plastic right off the bat. There is nothing traditional in the atmosphere there. But anyway, that is how it was. So, the La Villita Texana Library stopped and it went back to the Main Library; and so that's the story of the $25,000, though, but it didn't work out, nobody would carry it through; nobody seemed interested.
ALLISON: Were there any other individuals in San Antonio that gave any amounts of money? I know there were statues and . . . ?
WEBB: I think a very few, but I am uncertain of their names. There was a statue of Hidalgo sent to Maury by the people of Mexico and also certain people from Central America sent little gifts and things like that. They may be in the small museum office of the, of La Villita now. Some retablos and a few outstanding items, small and not expensive were bought out of the fund. I'm sure one or two santos were. The statue of Hidalgo was there at La Villita for a long time, and before Maury could get it settled, why he was defeated for Mayor, I think in 1941. I think that's when it was, then. His successor, Mayor Quinn, had it moved and put over there on Romana Plaza. And there it is, and somebody suggested he's now directing traffic. But, I'm (laugh) not sure if he is or not. But, anyway, I'm glad he's there, but I'm sorry he's not nearer La Villita or in La Villita. He, Maury planned to put it down in Juarez Plaza in La Villita where he had named the, the main plaza for Benito Juarez. Every one of the houses had a special name, of course. Even there's a Canada House. You see, he was one of these Western Hemisphere solidarity buffs!!
ALLISON: Was it his idea to dedicate the area for Pan American Solidarity?
WEBB: Yes, of course, certainly, and that it was! It was! Yes. It was Western Hemisphere Solidarity, Pan American . . . it means the same. That's not only Mexico, but mostly Mexico, of course. We are closer to Mexico than we are to Canada, but Canada is in this Western Hemisphere as well as Central and South America, don't you see?
ALLISON: Yes.
WEBB: And we are all on the same Western Hemisphere, and so we have to think about that. Right then it was pretty important, maybe more important than it is now when we are doing so well.
ALLISON: Louis Lipscomb mentioned that Dr. and Mrs. Frederic Oppenheimer, and I think he mentioned a Mr. Morrison making contributions.
WEBB: St. Anthony Hotel Morrison?
ALLISON: Morrison.
WEBB: Oh yes, they did help. Now the Oppenheimers, the whole family, were awfully good about the River, too, because you see the River ran right by their bank, you know, right practically inside, it may have run under the bank in the back. They may have had a place down in there. They were awfully helpful. And they may have, I'm not quite sure just what their specific gift was, but they did give money to the place and great cooperation. Lots of wonderful people helped, nearly everybody did, in whatever way they could. They really did. It was really quite a nice thing, but it got so successful and so big, and then the war came on. They, the city and the Villita Board turned it over to the Red Cross. But he was delighted that it was turned over completely to the Red Cross, and it was Red Cross Headquarters. They made bandages and everything else, in fact, ran their entire Red Cross war programs from Villita, a real emergency center and facility. Maury was back in Washington with the National War Production Board and as manager of the Smaller War Plants Corporation under FDR and Truman.
ALLISON: What was the initial purpose of La Villita . . .
WEBB: To . . .
ALLISON: before the war started:
WEBB: To, to help the young people to . . . , first, to encourage Western Hemispheric solidarity. I guess . . . No, that was, that couldn't be the very first because . . . To save it, to keep it from being something, that maybe a garage or parking lot. Oh! To get it, to get the city to save it. It was going to be a commercial thing, and it had to bring money to the owner, you know, you can see their side of it, but anyway, to get hold of it for the city, to put it with the other historical places that we have, the Missions, and it belonged with the Alamo. The people who were at the Alamo, probably, and I think they have decided that many who may have fought in the Alamo lived there because they lived all around. No, just to save it, just save it for the town and for the world, for posterity, if nothing else. But then, it was wonderful that it could be used to give work for some of the great artists and great, great architects and the people who ran these agencies during the depression and war. They were hard up, broke, most of the great important people, and in their arts and in their lines, but they were sent down there by the national offices to, to train other people, and they were paid by the government for doing it. There was something going in every single house. Those poor blind people coming in there weaving was the most inspirational thing I ever saw in my life. Yes, it was! It was a good thing, it was a good thing, and the Conservation Society actually, they have that little house across the street. They were not the original people; La Villita did not originate form the Conservation Society. They'll agree with the statement, but they helped. The Conservation members were, oh, I mean, we, as a group, were so specific and so magnificent and wonderful and pugnacious. If the situation arose, they moved right to the situation, but they, they came right in and cooperated, and but, I think they hoped it would be a little more arty, artful, watch after the arts. Well, you can't get off on another tangent when you are getting federal money. You've got to do something to help the people who, who are participating, but you have to have good consultants, and good advisers and good people and experts in their line, but you had to have schools to, to make it so you could get the money to run it with.
ALLISON: Weren't some of the schools building, or making tiles, to be used in lots of projects all over San Antonio? I heard that some of the tiles were even used at the Witte Museum.
WEBB: They may be, they may have been. They were lovely. If you go to La Villita and look at those tiles and, and over the fireplaces, in the, in the museum for instance and, or upstairs, all of those were made right there on the place, and I would suggest, as I told you to, to talk to Mary Green about that, because she was one of the main teachers, and that, that school, that tile place, the Public Service Company let us have their basement over there, right where the, the . . . what do they call it? La Villita Meeting House or whatever is they call their . . .
ALLISON: Assembly Hall?
WEBB: Yeah, that was, we used the basement of the building and that belonged to the Public Service Company, and they let Maury have it, and that's where Mary Green and also much of the iron work, and the ceramic work was done down there. That's gone now, of course.
ALLISON: Well, I read originally, well, or, a plan was to tear down the Public Service Company building and make it into a park, and, of course, it never came to pass because they put the Assembly Building there.
WEBB: They didn't know exactly what was going to be done, and everybody was watching that, and nobody knew exactly what was going to happen there. But, it was built and I think it has served a very good purpose, it really has.
ALLISON: Did they offer any kind of entertainment down at La Villita? I heard about the puppet shows particularly the one . . .
WEBB: Well, we had puppet shows, Mexican dance lessons . . . Oh, Rose Bernard was the head of that department. She worked with the City. She is in California now; she is the mother of Herschel Bernard, a lawyer in San Antonio. Rose started the Little Mexican Dancers in there. They would come and dance at certain times and give lessons, the children danced in Juarez Plaza. It was fantastic. I forgot the name of the wonderful Mexican girl who was head of it. I think it might be Almiguer. I think she is dead now. I hope not. Everybody knew her and she could play the piano, and was just great. And she started all of that . . . This is another story, it hasn't anything to do with La Villita, but the Children's Symphony concerts started. We got money for that, too, and then we got federal money for the Children's Symphony into the schools, and then they started the school thing, yes. His name is, he is dead now, he was in the symphony and a good friend of everybody who started, I can't think of his name at this moment. Simon, Bertram Simon, B-E-R-T-R-A-M, I guess, or A-N-D and Simons, S-I-M-O-N. Anyone in the older musical circles will, will smile at his name because he did so much for the schoolchildren and that was done under some federal grant. I don't know, but that started under Maury when he was Mayor.
ALLISON: Do you remember the puppet show when your husband, I think, they, he used his voice but somebody else, you know, used the strings? fingers?
WEBB: I remember about it. They gave me his puppet. I'm not clear enough, but I do know that his puppet is now hanging in the Villita office and I gave it back to them two or three years back. I gave Rose Bernard his shirttail. It was always hanging out, because he was a big man up here and a little man down there, and now . . . But his shirttail was hanging out, and he has a piece of his suit, and it's made out of his own clothes and is hanging in one of the show cases in the office of La Villita right now. But, I think the nicest thing those children did, young people made at La Villita, some of the brasses and wrought iron that they made. They were fantastic. And they gave me one set when they closed up shop. There was somebody, I don't know who had, somebody gave it to me and I have it hanging over my sink right here in Austin now, and I want you to see them before you leave. Maury had a trademark made, as you know for it and for everything that was made there, and it was stamped on with a little house, with a Villita house. Have you seen that? Have you seen the little trademark that is on all the items?
ALLISON: Yes, I've seen that.
WEBB: Yes, I thought it was real sweet. You know, he just loved it. Okay, I haven't answered your question very much, but then I've just sort of chatted along. It's been a long time, honey.
ALLISON: No, I realize, it's 38 years now.
WEBB: Oh, my God (laugh).
ALLISON: What about Hamilton Magruder? Who was he, and
WEBB: Well, Hamilton Magruder was just one of those good guys. A man who had been studying engineering at A&M, he was married to a very popular schoolteacher. He was a smart man, available at the time. Many great, good men were available in the times of the depression. Many of them didn't have a job. But Hamilton was like everybody else. He was probably having a pretty hard time. He was a very bright man. Incidentally, later on, he made plenty of money on the stock market. Don't ever underestimate Mr. Magruder. He was the perfect selection; he had a feel for the thing, and he was a smart man, and he was an engineer, I think, and had known Maury for a long time. I think maybe, they might have been in the First Officers' Training Camp together. But anyway, it was the choice to end choices, and they moved down and lived right there; they had no children. She was a teacher and went to work every day. They moved and lived in the little house that the Craft Place is now. And down there, but, oh, he was good; he was wonderful; he, everybody had great respect for him, and they knew he knew what he was doing.
ALLISON: Well, apparently, they said he took care of the difficult task of moving the pathetic people living there. Did you ever see the people? . . .
WEBB: No.
ALLISON: . . . that were crowded in there?
WEBB: No, I went down . . . No, it was started before I knew anything about it. Maury came home and talked about it and told me he had offered Magruder the Director spot. Oh yes, he had a great, a certain charisma. It was one of the finest choices, and everybody, even the directors and everybody, they were pleased to death with, with Magruder. He knew how to say "No" to them, which is important. You have to know how to say "No" if you are going to be head of anything.
ALLISON: Well, the newspaper accounts are that Maury took a moonlight walk near the area, maybe, you know, where they were working on the River and saw La Villita and thought something had to be done. That sounds kind of dubious.
WEBB: Oh, well, that's just one of those things that may or may not have happened, but probably happened. Louis Lipscomb and he were supposed to be walking around and enjoying themselves and talking about what was going to happen and rightly so, he was Mayor and Lipscomb was Lipscomb was Commissioner, Police and Fire Commissioner. And Lord knows, we needed a Police Commissioner, maybe better than a Fire Commissioner at that time. But they did both of the jobs. They had to do something about lighting up the River, that was one of the most important things to do something right away. Louis Lipscomb had something to do with putting some lights around there because I went with him, and, and Floyd McGown, who was Maury's executive assistant, and we all walked that River and decided where the first mercury lights, some I'm sure are still burning, ought to be. They let me come along with them and they'd ask my advice, around and Lord knows, I don't remember. It was interesting and wonderful and creative a very fine experience, I'll never forget. But, It was something that had to be done. We had to get more light on the River if we were going to let people walk down there which we, of course, happened. That's how the famous River Walk began.
ALLISON: Why was Robert Mickler chosen as the chairman of the Villita Committee? Was this your husband's doing?
WEBB: Oh yes, well, Bob was a good friend of ours, and an artistic man who knew a great deal about, about, about art, and he had a feel for things, and he was nice, good to work with, and knew something fine, he knew how to buy things, he was a furniture man, you know, and in those days, because the Sterchie furniture people are his family. You see, and when some special thing had to be bought, often Bob would go and pick it up, because he knew how to buy, and he knew what was good and he knew what was the right thing to do, and he was a close friend of Maury's. He did most of the buying, well, we didn't buy too much, Maury and I did a good deal, but Bob bought a wonderful statue, one of the great Churriqueresque statues. I don't know where it is either and I didn't see it last time I went down there. I guess it's in La Villita inside the museum. It was in the window there in the museum, a special window, but it's been moved. I do not know where it is now. Well, it belongs to the City, so I don't know. I will inquire about it the next time I'm over in San Antonio.
ALLISON: Did Maury leave the architecture to the architects, or did he kind of work with them? Or . . . , I know he had an interest in architecture.
WEBB: Well, he worked with them of course, but not really architecturally. Blanding Stone came for months. He was a wonderful artist, as was George Biddle who came, and of course, that's when O'Neill Ford came the first time. O'Neill, at that time, I don't think, was a full-fledged architect; he was loving the work, not only was it an art to him, but he knew the business and he just went on from there. He's an amazingly fine and inventive architect. And then there was another one, some brothers, I forget, in the NYA who they were, I don't know. It's Dave Williams. But that was the first time we ever knew O'Neill Ford, and he worked on from there, and then he married Wanda Graham and came right there and we used to have a lot of conversations. O'Neill was young and full of beans and, and full of wonderful new ideas. He was a good guy and I'm glad he stayed in San Antonio. He not only is one of America's great designers and architects, he's a fantastic human being. Sam Zisman was there also. That's an architect who did a lot for San Antonio. And there was Dave Williams, Harding Black, who is still in San Antonio, Henry Weidermeyer, Jr. was involved in Villita. And, of course, Stuart King, a genius with horticulture, who Maury got from A&M. He was called the City Forester. He did the tree work at Villita, the Cos House and the River and Brackenridge Park.
ALLISON: You showed me the picture with the exposed ceiling beams in the old houses and you said your husband wanted them to show . . .
WEBB: Oh, yes.
ALLISON: . . . how the beams ran.
WEBB: . . . up and down, the Mexicans built them up and down, the Anglos crosswise. And, and I forgot that each, each little house had a name and Maury had fun, you know. You know, we discovered a cistern. My lord, we were making Juarez Plaza all over the place and my heavens, here we ran into a cistern! An open cistern. We found all kinds of pots and pans and daggers and dirt and broken chairs and everything else in the cistern. And the cistern is still there, the well, we call it. If you will notice, on Juarez Plaza, towards the front. But he would go down and everybody thought that that was an interesting step to take in leaving that portion of the front glassed over outside so that you could see that the Mexican people and those pioneer people who built their houses as the Mexicans did with the support sticks going up and down instead of crosswise like we do in this country. Yeah, that's there and it's on the front of one of the little houses. And oh, I do remember how careful we were about leaving those beams in the ceiling in the houses. They were repainted very carefully so that they looked old, and it's really very charming. Lots of the old glass is still there, as it is at the governor's palace, and it has been awfully hard to keep the old glass, the bubbled, handmade glass there and in the windows at the Governor's Palace, also. I forget the name of that house. We had a hard time trying to find a place for rest-rooms. We had to put in a public place, restrooms for men and women. And they are in the back of that one little house that we finally found the place that we could stick a little restroom, and it is there that people get their rest.
ALLISON: Well, did you go down frequently while they were doing the work?
WEBB: Oh, sure, but remember we spent the war days in D.C.
ALLISON: Now, because I read in something like . . . , that the Junior League would, took their Provisionals down there apparently on a field trip. They thought it was very important to San Antonio.
WEBB: Yeah, yes, oh sure. But I never did take the League Provisionals down there because not too long after I was put on the Board of the League, we left for Washington. However, I did a lot of my work by writing a little something back for the Bright Scrawl every month. They said I could do it, and we were in our early (laugh) stages then, making our mistakes hand over fist. But I did visit La Villita and so did the Provisionals. People took tours down there, because it was new, and it was close. And the schoolchildren came and it was a very popular place, really, it was. I remember the first night we had the first "Old Night in San Antonio" we ever had. We couldn't believe our eyes how successful it was.
ALLISON: When was that?
WEBB: I forget the exact year of it, but it, but the first one was before La Villita, and it was on the River. We only had, we had one block on the River right down there where the old Public Service Company used to be. I remember I was the, was in charge of the Mexican section. I think we called it the "River Festival" then. I remember too when we, where the Arneson Theatre steps were and there was a great discussion over whether to put grass there and let people sit on the grass. And I think they still sit on the grass, don't they?
ALLISON: I think so.
WEBB: Yeah, that was great, but you must go down to the Cos House which has been beautifully preserved, and if you haven't done it, I think I may have suggested to you to see the, the ceramics that were done there inside of the yard wall. Have you had a chance to do that? You ought to go.
ALLISON: I haven't been . . .
WEBB: You must go.
ALLISON: . . . recently.
WEBB: . . . because I will say that they put some current stuff in there, the ceramic garden murals is of Maury in an automobile with President Roosevelt, showing him the old Post Office of San Antonio. And that is the one place that Maury was going to do without historic restoration; he was going to have a, a modern kitchen where they could heat up the tortillas and heat up the things to eat. It's all closed off, and you wouldn't know that the kitchen was there, but it's all there, nice electric ice box and a stove and everything where they could have parties down there, and we did, we had a lot of parties. They still do. Dr. Oppenheimer gave us a wonderful picture. They were awfully generous, he and Lucille, his wife, about giving us things for the Cos House. But, that, I love the Cos House. It's a dear place. But it was fun, and I didn't know whether they ought to extend that porch out a little bit, but they decided that it was right; it ought to be extended so they could have tables out there in the event it rained, and stuff like that. And you would never know it wasn't there from the beginning. Okay, I may have talked too long.
ALLISON: Did, did Maury know Robert Hugman very well?
WEBB: Yes, everybody knew Mr. Hugman, of course. He had a great deal to do with the River, and he was a man who, I mean, I mean, I forget much, gee it's been so long, honey . . . He later had his office down on the River, right down on the River now, in the little house there, now where the red geraniums have grown.
ALLISON: Where the Coin Shop is? That was Robert Hugman's?
WEBB: Well, yes. Yes, Mr. Hugman, oh, of course. He was a man who I don't feel ever really got credit. Well, who does get proper credit for things? He had wonderful ideas. But he never had anything to back him up. That's where Maury came into the picture. He was possessive and almost too smart for the people of San Antonio. His motto was "He gets things done." You know, you have these marvelous ideas, but many people don't know how to get them started. Maury Maverick had no inferiority complex about him, you know. He just went on, but he was a gentle man as I have said. I never knew when he was roughly gentle or gently rough. But he rarely apologized; he didn't feel that he had to, you know. He did what he, what he figured ought to be done, and if he lost okay; if he won, he was happy. He fought hard and he usually won.
ALLISON: Was the dedication of La Villita after he was no longer Mayor?
WEBB: I can't remember too much of that, but I'm sure he was Mayor. I have some pictures here at The University of Texas in Austin. Sometime anybody who is interested in the University . . . , in La Villita ought to come here to the Maury Maverick collection and look at the La Villita pictures that are in the collection.
ALLISON: Where is this collection?
WEBB: Mr. Chester Kielman, the Archivist of U.T., has them. Right here at the University in the Library, in the Sid Richardson Building, near the LBJ Library.
ALLISON: Which library?
WEBB: At, well it used to be called the Barker Library. It's way down by the LBJ. You know.
ALLISON: Uh huh.
WEBB: It's way over there. You have to get permission and all kinds of things like that, but that is where the fantastic Sam Maverick papers are, too. That's Maury's grandfather. But all of Maury's papers are down there also. It's fantastic (laugh). And most of the scrapbooks I made for him while he was in Congress, and also while he was Mayor. Yes, a lot of that is down there. And I didn't make them really to put in any museum, there's a lot of personal stuff in it. But then that, I suppose, adds to it. So, but it's right there and anybody who is doing any work on the city of San Antonio or anything that Maury had to do with, should come here and get permission to, to go through those things. You can get in.
ALLISON: What kind of publicity did La Villita get while you, while it was being done?
WEBB: Well, I think it was pretty good. I don't remember, especially that it got anything particularly special, maybe it did or maybe it didn't, but I'm not sure that it was anything unusual. The local papers would have it. The Express file is here at the Library.
ALLISON: Again, what kind of publicity did La Villita get in the press?
WEBB: Oh, I think it got a good coverage . . . In those days, it was a sort of, beginning of, of, of a restoration, epidemic that has followed around in Tex . . . Oh, really not the real beginning of course, but, but to go around and look around before something was made into a parking lot or a hotel or something like that, to see if it could be saved and it . . . in Dallas, and we got some good publicity in Houston, also . . . You see, the Texas fight was around in the southern part of the state, don't you see. I mean . . .
ALLISON: What's that . . . the Texas fight?
WEBB: Well, I mean the Texas-Mexican battles. Don't you see, years ago? And we did most of our fighting around in the lower part of Texas, you know, in East Texas, around over in there, so that's the reason the people down here have more to do with it than they have to do up in Dallas because the Latin Americans are mostly down here towards the Rio Grande River. Don't you . . . ? That's where our fight was mostly. And the pioneers, of course, were up in there. They've got some wonderful museums up there in North Texas, now. Oh my, and the, the national park business is doing a great job in restoring, giving money and helping to, to preserve these earlier places around in Texas, especially this little wonderful ranch place up in northwest Texas. Wonderful work has been done. But . . . Maury introduced, though his name is not on the National Sites Bill in Washington. It was his baby bill. Mr., Dr. Joe Frantz has the material of it right now. Maury introduced it as a member of Congress for Mr. Harold Ickes, Secretary of the Interior. But the Chairman of the House Committee, as is usual, has his name on the bill. But I have the whole thing. It is not in my possession today because they asked for it here at the museum. And they have it, they are doing some research on it now. But Maury did introduce it. And because everybody knows about it, I know when I go to the National Trust, the oldsters who are still in it, will say something about Maury introducing that bill. And I did go out to New Mexico and I was one of the honor persons the first year after Maury died when they made an historic site and were dedicating it. Anything else you want to know?
ALLISON: Well, was there any criticism locally?
WEBB: Oh, no, he never got any credit locally.
ALLISON: Criticism!
WEBB: Oh, criticism.
ALLISON: I guess he got a lot of that (laugh).
WEBB: Oh, yes, oh, yes, he got plenty of criticism, but he got plenty of credit. He ran the city well. There were a lot of people who didn't like some of the things that he did and, and of course, there are. Lots of people remember nothing except the Auditorium situation; but that has nothing to do with historic preservation. As Mayor of San Antonio, Poor Devil, I remember that Auditorium night. You see, the Communist Party at that time was an official party and could legally be on the, on the voting ballot just like the Democrats and the Republicans. There was nothing he could do when they had been given permission to do it, they could MANDAMUS him and get it, and he wasn't going to, he wasn't going to have that happen, because they had done just that very thing in, in Oklahoma not long before and they won their case. So there wasn't anything else he could do. It was a very unfortunate thing. And I think most of the people in San Antonio are ashamed of the fracas now. Of course, they had a terrible riot there. That was before your day.
ALLISON: My mother said she thinks . . .
WEBB: Yes?
ALLISON: . . . she went down there and watched or booed herself (laugh).
WEBB: Uh, huh, oh yes, a lot of people did. Mary Aubrey said she wouldn't have missed it for anything, and, and the trouble of it is that, but it was a sad thing. Poor thing, oh, Maury hated it, but there wasn't anything he could do, he was not going to go against the National Government. They had won it in the Supreme Court, and they had applied and all of the requirements had been met, and everything and there wasn't anything else you could do. There were only 27 registered Communists or people present. It was just, oh, . . . but it was an apparently great thing for the Veterans of World War I and the Church and the different people to come and have a great thing. Oh, it was an exciting night. But, oh, but, it hurt Maury. Oh, brother, it hurt him. And we were at our house, and we could hear 'em all the way out there. Wasn't any use to go. Why should he go? But it was just pretty bad. I have the pictures, lot of the pictures and lot of the rioting and lot of the stuff is right here in the archives (snap of the fingers) at U.T.
ALLISON: But, do you think that the La, La Villita Song is in the archives?
WEBB: I don't know, and you know, my dear, I've lost it. I've lost, but it's around here some place. I have two copies of it. It ought to be in the City. I cannot believe that the City of San Antonio has people working for them who haven't kept the things that belong to the City. That song was copyrighted in the name of the City of San Antonio. It's the cutest thing. I'll find it, and it's just beautiful, and illuminated, illustrated all around by this famous artist who was assigned to La Villita, and he was the backbone of all the artistic things then. I can't think of his name, and that was one of the reasons I wanted to find it. It's just charming, and he did the whole thing. Oh, it's Blanding Sloan.
ALLISON: I wonder if it's one of the peoples that like the WPA sent in, their scholars and artists to research and then to make a booklet on La Villita?
WEBB: I, I . . . Wouldn't it be great? I wish they would. Well, they don't have the WPA now. You know like . . . We have to have a great emergency or depression for emergency legislation. I'm all for that type of solution because that's been one of the controversial things whether to give people work and that was a relief program just like dishing out money--but better, and like someone said, "You know, Michigan Avenue looked pretty good with people leaning on their shovels"--that beautiful Michigan Avenue in Chicago was done, every inch of it by WPA workers and the CCC, what was it . . . Civilian Conservation Corps or similar emergency agencies.
ALLISON: Un, huh.
WEBB: And America is proud of it now. Well, it's a great thing, historic restoration. I had forgotten, you know, giving credit for this and that and the other thing. I do with the Conservation Society, I wish we had, I said we, I was just a little bride at that time, I didn't participate very much. I just went because of Maury. Maury would go and I was busy, because I had babies, but I do think that the beginning movement and the restoration of that German section of the southern part of San Antonio is just charming. I took a teacher all through the section. A professor and I went over there some weeks ago this past winter for the Philosophical Meeting, and I remember (laugh). I'm a philosopher! I took them all out there and rode them all up and down the streets. It's just fantastic the way that's happened. If you've read anything in the in Aunt Ellen Slayden's book, Washington Wife, there is a section in there on the German part of San Antonio that you ought to read. She got in a little trouble at that time. It was World War I, don't you know. Things were a little delicate.
ALLISON: Un huh.
WEBB: And with, because you know, the Germans weren't very popular those days, don't you see? And they were good, good people, and just think what they have done and that whole section of San Antonio is just as interesting as any Latin American color, I think. It's charming. San Antonio is fortunate.
ALLISON: Do you have anything else to add that you think should be put down on La Villita?
WEBB: Well, oh, I don't know, I don't know, there are so many ideas, and so many angles to La Villita, that, that, it's hard to think of and I've been out of that for a long time, but I do know that, that if it hadn't been for Maury. Oh, there were a lot of generous people; the McAlilisters finally sold their house there on the corner and all of that, and, and . . . But, if it hadn't been for Maury, it never would have been saved. There is not question about it, because he was absolutely vigilant from morning till the night and that was the most important thing. In fact, a lot of people got kind of peeved at him for awhile because he wouldn't do anything else but save La Villita and arrange for the money because the City was broke. I do know it never would have happened without him; it never could have, have happened without him! It never could have because it had to be acted on then and now, and not two or three years hence because it would have been gone, and that's the only thing I feel. I loved it, he loved it, and the City now loves it. And I'm glad of it. By the way, you know those cannon out in front of the main entrance of Villita, the Maverick family gave them, put them in . They had them when Maury was born. His father, Albert, and his grandfather, Sam, were involved in the subject of the Alamo. Of course, Same wanted to live on the Alamo property, and, in this book here that I am showing you, this, this redo of Charles Ramsdell, it tells about Maury's grandfather. The pegs were in there. It was 218 Avenue E is where Maury was born and it's practically in the Alamo yard. So, anyway, La Villita to Maury was his child. And the City has been very kind, really they have. The, the only thing that I hate about it is they, they . . . it's really about the only thing he is remembered for. Because, he was so involved in the River and La Villita both. Incidentally, you know, we had a forester, too. He named him the City Forester. All those trees we moved in to Villita, they were never there originally. And I remember I was at the City Hall one day when the City Forester came by. Maury named him the City Forester just for the fun of it. He came by and drove the truck all around the City Hall bringing the trees to plant. We took some of those small oak trees from Brackenridge Park. You know that's the City's thing and he transplanted them in La Villita. but that was it, oh, he loved it, . . . I do think La Villita was his baby. And they admit, they have to admit that, and if they don't, it really doesn't matter.
ALLISON: No, I think they do.
WEBB: Oh, I hope they do because Maury did love it. Yes, I know it. But that's all, darling. We've both put in a good day's work.
ALLISON: Mrs. Webb is going to try to play the La Villita Song, copyrighted for the City.
WEBB: I'm going to try to find that music. It's here someplace, and we ought to find it because it's charming . . . I'm playing it by ear and if I stop in the middle of it (melody), let's see (melody) and then they have a grito (melody).
ALLISON: That's great.
BEXAR COUNTY HISTORIAL COMMISSION
INTERVIEW WITH TERRELL (MAVERICK) WEBB
Interviewer: Brooke Allison
Date: January 4, 1977
Place: Austin, Texas, Mrs. Webb's home.
(Mrs. Webb is the widow of the late Maury Maverick. The restoration of La Villita was virtually completed while Maverick was Mayor. Later, Terrell Maverick married the now deceased historian, Walter Prescott Webb.)
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ALLISON: Mrs. Webb, what do you think was the inspiration for the restoration of La Villita?
WEBB: Well, I think the inspiration really was just Maury's inborn love of San Antonio, and he, he happened to have heard while he was Mayor that there was going to be a sale or something unusual was going on, and they were going to level the Villita area as it had become a slum, you know. The area did look pretty awful with the old run-down houses and mud holes. There were old iron beds and all kinds of rubbish strung around. Maury got the idea that this might be a chance and time if he worked right quickly to save it. And, that was in 1939 when he had become Mayor of San Antonio. Of course, everybody had known that those really historic properties were there, but this was a chance, maybe, to do something about it. That was it, not long after he was Mayor of San Antonio in May 1939.
ALLISON: All right, do you think the parking lot was just kind of urban renewal, tearing it down, and this (La Villita) was just some restoration?
WEBB: Well . . . no, but as well as I can recall, he traded other city property to the local Public Service Company for the site, and on October 12 secured the adoption of the Villita Ordinance, which declared among its high purposes "the promotion of peace, friendship, and justice between the United States of America and all other nations in the Western Hemisphere." With this ordinance as a basis, the National Youth Administration put up about $100,000; the city, its share of $10,000; and then about 110 youths were employed in the restoration work. There is a complete explanation of the history of this project prepared by the W.P.A. called "Old Villita." Maverick is quoted as saying that "the area was restored to what it always was--a village of plain, simple people with architecture indigenous to the soil of San Antonio and Texas."
ALLISON: Had he (Maverick) been active with the Conservation Society?
WEBB: Yes, of course, more or less active. At that time, there were practically no men connected with the Conservation Society. We were just a group of women. And I think I told you, I may have told you at one time, when Maury was Mayor of San Antonio he didn't know whether to God bless the Conservation women or God damn them, because whenever he needed them they were right there and simply terrific, but whenever they jumped on him they were awful! So, he didn't know what to do (laugh) about them. But he loved them, every one. As a matter of fact, one time he said he always hated to go to their meetings, because one member would always sit on the front row and correct him if he made a mistake, whenever he (laugh) would speak to them. It might have been Mrs. Farnsworth. (Laugh.) I don't know that I've answered your question particularly, but then he knew that something was happening to the area and, and as far as I know parking places were not as necessary nor as popular as they are now. But the old houses were going to be demolished, and that was the thing that worried him. And, he thought, well, we've got to do something about it and act quickly, and he did; and he did whatever he thought and apparently was legal and right, and that's the way the city got it--quick action!
ALLISON: Why did he apply for money from the NYA? When he had been in Congress, he had, gotten money from the WPA for the River.
WEBB: Well, because the NYA may not have started as early as the PWA, the Public Works Administration. I'm not sure of all the details, but we knew very well the head of the NYA. He was one of our most intimate friends. And Maury started a, some sort of a school or some sort of an effort there that the NYA was doing where they could bring in talented or even untalented people to teach those young people who needed education in some sort of a trade or art, and that's exactly what happened! And you know, Mary Green was one of the teachers there; you should talk to her. Many of the people around San Antonio taught in the school in pottery, or . . . You can ask Mary Green about it because she made some beautiful potteries and, in fact, they . . . I've even gotten a few plates that they gave me, that they made there. Their copper work was wonderful. All the tiles in the project--patios and houses were made there.
ALLISON: Who did Maury know in the NYA so intimately?
WEBB: Aubrey Williams, the administrator.
ALLISON: How did he know him?
WEBB: Well, we had known him for some time. Maury was interested in that sort of thing, had voted for it in Washington, and we knew him when we were there in Washington. You, you want to remember that we were there at the very depth of the Depression, and he was a member of Congress. And so, he was interested in what Aubrey and the NYA and the CCC people were doing, and not only were they political friends, we were very close personally. And Mrs. Williams is still living over in Alabama, I think, and that's how it was. It was a valid request, and the NYA wanted requests like that. I remember the day, we had been in Chicago and when we finally had the Williams conference in St. Louis, it was the next day after the Democratic National Convention. When Maury came back, I never saw a man as happy in my life because he had gotten $70 or $75,000 or more grant from Williams right that day and we came on home to San Antonio. I mean, to the allocation and then the city had to do its part.
ALLISON: What did the city of San Antonio have to do to . . .
WEBB: I don't know for sure. There was a legal procedure that was carried out.
ALLISON: . . . implement the program?
WEBB: I, I, I can't answer you, properly. You would have to ask certainly the City Clerk, and I understand from people who have asked the City Clerk anything about it, they don't seem to know very much about it. But they are bound to have kept statistics, any city is bound to have and things and history of the town and . . .
ALLISON: Well, what about the property of La Villita? Who owned it?
WEBB: I don't know exactly who owned it but I think the Public Service Company did; Mr. Tuttle headed it. But I do know that the way that the city was supposed to do it, I'm not too sure of this, I can't back it up, but Maury said cities were not supposed to buy properties. They could do what we call barter and exchanging. They could exchange certain properties for other properties. Now, what the exchange was, I do not know, but I do know that the city legally got control of the property, and I do think they may have, the owners may have gotten some other properties in some other places, like in streets and in things like that. I'm not sure about that. And for that, you would have to go to the Clerk or the Public Service Board. But, I do know that the Public Service company figured in this.
ALLISON: You're, you're correct.
WEBB: I hope so.
ALLISON: All right, could you tell me about where any other monies came from besides the NYA?
WEBB: The only other real grant that I know we got was $25,000 from the Carnegie Foundation, and I think he got the inspiration for that request from, from the fact that his aunt Ellen Maury Slayden, the wife of Congressman James L. Slayden, knew Mr. Carnegie very well and was interested in libraries. So she had gotten the original grant of the money to build the downtown, the old Public Library, where the Circus Collection is now, you know.
ALLISON: Yes, the first Public Library.
WEBB: And the first money came through Aunt Ellen Slayden from Mr. Carnegie from the Foundation. So Maury thought he could, he would ask and he would set up what he thought would be, an important Texas section of the Public Library and have it in La Villita in the, in the big house. That's the reason he built that great, the big building. I forget what they call it . . .
ALLISON: Bolivar Building?
WEBB: Yes, that's it. Where the museum is now. They put the library section in there, downstairs where the museum is now in La Villita. And upstairs is a hall where you would have meetings and things like that. It's really quite a large place. And they, one of the James girls, Mrs. Carl Groos was the first librarian. You want to remember that. Well, anyway, she was the librarian there, and got paid through the library department, and she stayed there for a long time. And then they were worried as there wasn't anymore money to buy anymore books from the city. The city didn't or weren't in the purchasing business, and there was a problem along around that time, too, about school books and things like that, and Maury was not Mayor anymore. So they decided to move the books back to the Main Library. And now the Bolivar's first floor has sort of been turned slowly into a, a museum. And the Conservation Society, too, for putting those pictures of the Mayors of San Antonio in that place. I nearly died when they redid the City Hall of San Antonio, and it looks like a movie palace or a public . . . I don't know what. They took all of the interesting pictures out, the Mayors from the very first on down to the present one and then didn't know what to do with them. So as they didn't know what to do with them, the Conservation Society, God bless them, offered to take care of them. And they have them all over there in that, in the Conservation Museum in the first floor of the, of the La Villita Building. And it gives the place a real feeling of, of continuity. But, if you walk into City Hall now, you run into something plastic right off the bat. There is nothing traditional in the atmosphere there. But anyway, that is how it was. So, the La Villita Texana Library stopped and it went back to the Main Library; and so that's the story of the $25,000, though, but it didn't work out, nobody would carry it through; nobody seemed interested.
ALLISON: Were there any other individuals in San Antonio that gave any amounts of money? I know there were statues and . . . ?
WEBB: I think a very few, but I am uncertain of their names. There was a statue of Hidalgo sent to Maury by the people of Mexico and also certain people from Central America sent little gifts and things like that. They may be in the small museum office of the, of La Villita now. Some retablos and a few outstanding items, small and not expensive were bought out of the fund. I'm sure one or two santos were. The statue of Hidalgo was there at La Villita for a long time, and before Maury could get it settled, why he was defeated for Mayor, I think in 1941. I think that's when it was, then. His successor, Mayor Quinn, had it moved and put over there on Romana Plaza. And there it is, and somebody suggested he's now directing traffic. But, I'm (laugh) not sure if he is or not. But, anyway, I'm glad he's there, but I'm sorry he's not nearer La Villita or in La Villita. He, Maury planned to put it down in Juarez Plaza in La Villita where he had named the, the main plaza for Benito Juarez. Every one of the houses had a special name, of course. Even there's a Canada House. You see, he was one of these Western Hemisphere solidarity buffs!!
ALLISON: Was it his idea to dedicate the area for Pan American Solidarity?
WEBB: Yes, of course, certainly, and that it was! It was! Yes. It was Western Hemisphere Solidarity, Pan American . . . it means the same. That's not only Mexico, but mostly Mexico, of course. We are closer to Mexico than we are to Canada, but Canada is in this Western Hemisphere as well as Central and South America, don't you see?
ALLISON: Yes.
WEBB: And we are all on the same Western Hemisphere, and so we have to think about that. Right then it was pretty important, maybe more important than it is now when we are doing so well.
ALLISON: Louis Lipscomb mentioned that Dr. and Mrs. Frederic Oppenheimer, and I think he mentioned a Mr. Morrison making contributions.
WEBB: St. Anthony Hotel Morrison?
ALLISON: Morrison.
WEBB: Oh yes, they did help. Now the Oppenheimers, the whole family, were awfully good about the River, too, because you see the River ran right by their bank, you know, right practically inside, it may have run under the bank in the back. They may have had a place down in there. They were awfully helpful. And they may have, I'm not quite sure just what their specific gift was, but they did give money to the place and great cooperation. Lots of wonderful people helped, nearly everybody did, in whatever way they could. They really did. It was really quite a nice thing, but it got so successful and so big, and then the war came on. They, the city and the Villita Board turned it over to the Red Cross. But he was delighted that it was turned over completely to the Red Cross, and it was Red Cross Headquarters. They made bandages and everything else, in fact, ran their entire Red Cross war programs from Villita, a real emergency center and facility. Maury was back in Washington with the National War Production Board and as manager of the Smaller War Plants Corporation under FDR and Truman.
ALLISON: What was the initial purpose of La Villita . . .
WEBB: To . . .
ALLISON: before the war started:
WEBB: To, to help the young people to . . . , first, to encourage Western Hemispheric solidarity. I guess . . . No, that was, that couldn't be the very first because . . . To save it, to keep it from being something, that maybe a garage or parking lot. Oh! To get it, to get the city to save it. It was going to be a commercial thing, and it had to bring money to the owner, you know, you can see their side of it, but anyway, to get hold of it for the city, to put it with the other historical places that we have, the Missions, and it belonged with the Alamo. The people who were at the Alamo, probably, and I think they have decided that many who may have fought in the Alamo lived there because they lived all around. No, just to save it, just save it for the town and for the world, for posterity, if nothing else. But then, it was wonderful that it could be used to give work for some of the great artists and great, great architects and the people who ran these agencies during the depression and war. They were hard up, broke, most of the great important people, and in their arts and in their lines, but they were sent down there by the national offices to, to train other people, and they were paid by the government for doing it. There was something going in every single house. Those poor blind people coming in there weaving was the most inspirational thing I ever saw in my life. Yes, it was! It was a good thing, it was a good thing, and the Conservation Society actually, they have that little house across the street. They were not the original people; La Villita did not originate form the Conservation Society. They'll agree with the statement, but they helped. The Conservation members were, oh, I mean, we, as a group, were so specific and so magnificent and wonderful and pugnacious. If the situation arose, they moved right to the situation, but they, they came right in and cooperated, and but, I think they hoped it would be a little more arty, artful, watch after the arts. Well, you can't get off on another tangent when you are getting federal money. You've got to do something to help the people who, who are participating, but you have to have good consultants, and good advisers and good people and experts in their line, but you had to have schools to, to make it so you could get the money to run it with.
ALLISON: Weren't some of the schools building, or making tiles, to be used in lots of projects all over San Antonio? I heard that some of the tiles were even used at the Witte Museum.
WEBB: They may be, they may have been. They were lovely. If you go to La Villita and look at those tiles and, and over the fireplaces, in the, in the museum for instance and, or upstairs, all of those were made right there on the place, and I would suggest, as I told you to, to talk to Mary Green about that, because she was one of the main teachers, and that, that school, that tile place, the Public Service Company let us have their basement over there, right where the, the . . . what do they call it? La Villita Meeting House or whatever is they call their . . .
ALLISON: Assembly Hall?
WEBB: Yeah, that was, we used the basement of the building and that belonged to the Public Service Company, and they let Maury have it, and that's where Mary Green and also much of the iron work, and the ceramic work was done down there. That's gone now, of course.
ALLISON: Well, I read originally, well, or, a plan was to tear down the Public Service Company building and make it into a park, and, of course, it never came to pass because they put the Assembly Building there.
WEBB: They didn't know exactly what was going to be done, and everybody was watching that, and nobody knew exactly what was going to happen there. But, it was built and I think it has served a very good purpose, it really has.
ALLISON: Did they offer any kind of entertainment down at La Villita? I heard about the puppet shows particularly the one . . .
WEBB: Well, we had puppet shows, Mexican dance lessons . . . Oh, Rose Bernard was the head of that department. She worked with the City. She is in California now; she is the mother of Herschel Bernard, a lawyer in San Antonio. Rose started the Little Mexican Dancers in there. They would come and dance at certain times and give lessons, the children danced in Juarez Plaza. It was fantastic. I forgot the name of the wonderful Mexican girl who was head of it. I think it might be Almiguer. I think she is dead now. I hope not. Everybody knew her and she could play the piano, and was just great. And she started all of that . . . This is another story, it hasn't anything to do with La Villita, but the Children's Symphony concerts started. We got money for that, too, and then we got federal money for the Children's Symphony into the schools, and then they started the school thing, yes. His name is, he is dead now, he was in the symphony and a good friend of everybody who started, I can't think of his name at this moment. Simon, Bertram Simon, B-E-R-T-R-A-M, I guess, or A-N-D and Simons, S-I-M-O-N. Anyone in the older musical circles will, will smile at his name because he did so much for the schoolchildren and that was done under some federal grant. I don't know, but that started under Maury when he was Mayor.
ALLISON: Do you remember the puppet show when your husband, I think, they, he used his voice but somebody else, you know, used the strings? fingers?
WEBB: I remember about it. They gave me his puppet. I'm not clear enough, but I do know that his puppet is now hanging in the Villita office and I gave it back to them two or three years back. I gave Rose Bernard his shirttail. It was always hanging out, because he was a big man up here and a little man down there, and now . . . But his shirttail was hanging out, and he has a piece of his suit, and it's made out of his own clothes and is hanging in one of the show cases in the office of La Villita right now. But, I think the nicest thing those children did, young people made at La Villita, some of the brasses and wrought iron that they made. They were fantastic. And they gave me one set when they closed up shop. There was somebody, I don't know who had, somebody gave it to me and I have it hanging over my sink right here in Austin now, and I want you to see them before you leave. Maury had a trademark made, as you know for it and for everything that was made there, and it was stamped on with a little house, with a Villita house. Have you seen that? Have you seen the little trademark that is on all the items?
ALLISON: Yes, I've seen that.
WEBB: Yes, I thought it was real sweet. You know, he just loved it. Okay, I haven't answered your question very much, but then I've just sort of chatted along. It's been a long time, honey.
ALLISON: No, I realize, it's 38 years now.
WEBB: Oh, my God (laugh).
ALLISON: What about Hamilton Magruder? Who was he, and
WEBB: Well, Hamilton Magruder was just one of those good guys. A man who had been studying engineering at A&M, he was married to a very popular schoolteacher. He was a smart man, available at the time. Many great, good men were available in the times of the depression. Many of them didn't have a job. But Hamilton was like everybody else. He was probably having a pretty hard time. He was a very bright man. Incidentally, later on, he made plenty of money on the stock market. Don't ever underestimate Mr. Magruder. He was the perfect selection; he had a feel for the thing, and he was a smart man, and he was an engineer, I think, and had known Maury for a long time. I think maybe, they might have been in the First Officers' Training Camp together. But anyway, it was the choice to end choices, and they moved down and lived right there; they had no children. She was a teacher and went to work every day. They moved and lived in the little house that the Craft Place is now. And down there, but, oh, he was good; he was wonderful; he, everybody had great respect for him, and they knew he knew what he was doing.
ALLISON: Well, apparently, they said he took care of the difficult task of moving the pathetic people living there. Did you ever see the people? . . .
WEBB: No.
ALLISON: . . . that were crowded in there?
WEBB: No, I went down . . . No, it was started before I knew anything about it. Maury came home and talked about it and told me he had offered Magruder the Director spot. Oh yes, he had a great, a certain charisma. It was one of the finest choices, and everybody, even the directors and everybody, they were pleased to death with, with Magruder. He knew how to say "No" to them, which is important. You have to know how to say "No" if you are going to be head of anything.
ALLISON: Well, the newspaper accounts are that Maury took a moonlight walk near the area, maybe, you know, where they were working on the River and saw La Villita and thought something had to be done. That sounds kind of dubious.
WEBB: Oh, well, that's just one of those things that may or may not have happened, but probably happened. Louis Lipscomb and he were supposed to be walking around and enjoying themselves and talking about what was going to happen and rightly so, he was Mayor and Lipscomb was Lipscomb was Commissioner, Police and Fire Commissioner. And Lord knows, we needed a Police Commissioner, maybe better than a Fire Commissioner at that time. But they did both of the jobs. They had to do something about lighting up the River, that was one of the most important things to do something right away. Louis Lipscomb had something to do with putting some lights around there because I went with him, and, and Floyd McGown, who was Maury's executive assistant, and we all walked that River and decided where the first mercury lights, some I'm sure are still burning, ought to be. They let me come along with them and they'd ask my advice, around and Lord knows, I don't remember. It was interesting and wonderful and creative a very fine experience, I'll never forget. But, It was something that had to be done. We had to get more light on the River if we were going to let people walk down there which we, of course, happened. That's how the famous River Walk began.
ALLISON: Why was Robert Mickler chosen as the chairman of the Villita Committee? Was this your husband's doing?
WEBB: Oh yes, well, Bob was a good friend of ours, and an artistic man who knew a great deal about, about, about art, and he had a feel for things, and he was nice, good to work with, and knew something fine, he knew how to buy things, he was a furniture man, you know, and in those days, because the Sterchie furniture people are his family. You see, and when some special thing had to be bought, often Bob would go and pick it up, because he knew how to buy, and he knew what was good and he knew what was the right thing to do, and he was a close friend of Maury's. He did most of the buying, well, we didn't buy too much, Maury and I did a good deal, but Bob bought a wonderful statue, one of the great Churriqueresque statues. I don't know where it is either and I didn't see it last time I went down there. I guess it's in La Villita inside the museum. It was in the window there in the museum, a special window, but it's been moved. I do not know where it is now. Well, it belongs to the City, so I don't know. I will inquire about it the next time I'm over in San Antonio.
ALLISON: Did Maury leave the architecture to the architects, or did he kind of work with them? Or . . . , I know he had an interest in architecture.
WEBB: Well, he worked with them of course, but not really architecturally. Blanding Stone came for months. He was a wonderful artist, as was George Biddle who came, and of course, that's when O'Neill Ford came the first time. O'Neill, at that time, I don't think, was a full-fledged architect; he was loving the work, not only was it an art to him, but he knew the business and he just went on from there. He's an amazingly fine and inventive architect. And then there was another one, some brothers, I forget, in the NYA who they were, I don't know. It's Dave Williams. But that was the first time we ever knew O'Neill Ford, and he worked on from there, and then he married Wanda Graham and came right there and we used to have a lot of conversations. O'Neill was young and full of beans and, and full of wonderful new ideas. He was a good guy and I'm glad he stayed in San Antonio. He not only is one of America's great designers and architects, he's a fantastic human being. Sam Zisman was there also. That's an architect who did a lot for San Antonio. And there was Dave Williams, Harding Black, who is still in San Antonio, Henry Weidermeyer, Jr. was involved in Villita. And, of course, Stuart King, a genius with horticulture, who Maury got from A&M. He was called the City Forester. He did the tree work at Villita, the Cos House and the River and Brackenridge Park.
ALLISON: You showed me the picture with the exposed ceiling beams in the old houses and you said your husband wanted them to show . . .
WEBB: Oh, yes.
ALLISON: . . . how the beams ran.
WEBB: . . . up and down, the Mexicans built them up and down, the Anglos crosswise. And, and I forgot that each, each little house had a name and Maury had fun, you know. You know, we discovered a cistern. My lord, we were making Juarez Plaza all over the place and my heavens, here we ran into a cistern! An open cistern. We found all kinds of pots and pans and daggers and dirt and broken chairs and everything else in the cistern. And the cistern is still there, the well, we call it. If you will notice, on Juarez Plaza, towards the front. But he would go down and everybody thought that that was an interesting step to take in leaving that portion of the front glassed over outside so that you could see that the Mexican people and those pioneer people who built their houses as the Mexicans did with the support sticks going up and down instead of crosswise like we do in this country. Yeah, that's there and it's on the front of one of the little houses. And oh, I do remember how careful we were about leaving those beams in the ceiling in the houses. They were repainted very carefully so that they looked old, and it's really very charming. Lots of the old glass is still there, as it is at the governor's palace, and it has been awfully hard to keep the old glass, the bubbled, handmade glass there and in the windows at the Governor's Palace, also. I forget the name of that house. We had a hard time trying to find a place for rest-rooms. We had to put in a public place, restrooms for men and women. And they are in the back of that one little house that we finally found the place that we could stick a little restroom, and it is there that people get their rest.
ALLISON: Well, did you go down frequently while they were doing the work?
WEBB: Oh, sure, but remember we spent the war days in D.C.
ALLISON: Now, because I read in something like . . . , that the Junior League would, took their Provisionals down there apparently on a field trip. They thought it was very important to San Antonio.
WEBB: Yeah, yes, oh sure. But I never did take the League Provisionals down there because not too long after I was put on the Board of the League, we left for Washington. However, I did a lot of my work by writing a little something back for the Bright Scrawl every month. They said I could do it, and we were in our early (laugh) stages then, making our mistakes hand over fist. But I did visit La Villita and so did the Provisionals. People took tours down there, because it was new, and it was close. And the schoolchildren came and it was a very popular place, really, it was. I remember the first night we had the first "Old Night in San Antonio" we ever had. We couldn't believe our eyes how successful it was.
ALLISON: When was that?
WEBB: I forget the exact year of it, but it, but the first one was before La Villita, and it was on the River. We only had, we had one block on the River right down there where the old Public Service Company used to be. I remember I was the, was in charge of the Mexican section. I think we called it the "River Festival" then. I remember too when we, where the Arneson Theatre steps were and there was a great discussion over whether to put grass there and let people sit on the grass. And I think they still sit on the grass, don't they?
ALLISON: I think so.
WEBB: Yeah, that was great, but you must go down to the Cos House which has been beautifully preserved, and if you haven't done it, I think I may have suggested to you to see the, the ceramics that were done there inside of the yard wall. Have you had a chance to do that? You ought to go.
ALLISON: I haven't been . . .
WEBB: You must go.
ALLISON: . . . recently.
WEBB: . . . because I will say that they put some current stuff in there, the ceramic garden murals is of Maury in an automobile with President Roosevelt, showing him the old Post Office of San Antonio. And that is the one place that Maury was going to do without historic restoration; he was going to have a, a modern kitchen where they could heat up the tortillas and heat up the things to eat. It's all closed off, and you wouldn't know that the kitchen was there, but it's all there, nice electric ice box and a stove and everything where they could have parties down there, and we did, we had a lot of parties. They still do. Dr. Oppenheimer gave us a wonderful picture. They were awfully generous, he and Lucille, his wife, about giving us things for the Cos House. But, that, I love the Cos House. It's a dear place. But it was fun, and I didn't know whether they ought to extend that porch out a little bit, but they decided that it was right; it ought to be extended so they could have tables out there in the event it rained, and stuff like that. And you would never know it wasn't there from the beginning. Okay, I may have talked too long.
ALLISON: Did, did Maury know Robert Hugman very well?
WEBB: Yes, everybody knew Mr. Hugman, of course. He had a great deal to do with the River, and he was a man who, I mean, I mean, I forget much, gee it's been so long, honey . . . He later had his office down on the River, right down on the River now, in the little house there, now where the red geraniums have grown.
ALLISON: Where the Coin Shop is? That was Robert Hugman's?
WEBB: Well, yes. Yes, Mr. Hugman, oh, of course. He was a man who I don't feel ever really got credit. Well, who does get proper credit for things? He had wonderful ideas. But he never had anything to back him up. That's where Maury came into the picture. He was possessive and almost too smart for the people of San Antonio. His motto was "He gets things done." You know, you have these marvelous ideas, but many people don't know how to get them started. Maury Maverick had no inferiority complex about him, you know. He just went on, but he was a gentle man as I have said. I never knew when he was roughly gentle or gently rough. But he rarely apologized; he didn't feel that he had to, you know. He did what he, what he figured ought to be done, and if he lost okay; if he won, he was happy. He fought hard and he usually won.
ALLISON: Was the dedication of La Villita after he was no longer Mayor?
WEBB: I can't remember too much of that, but I'm sure he was Mayor. I have some pictures here at The University of Texas in Austin. Sometime anybody who is interested in the University . . . , in La Villita ought to come here to the Maury Maverick collection and look at the La Villita pictures that are in the collection.
ALLISON: Where is this collection?
WEBB: Mr. Chester Kielman, the Archivist of U.T., has them. Right here at the University in the Library, in the Sid Richardson Building, near the LBJ Library.
ALLISON: Which library?
WEBB: At, well it used to be called the Barker Library. It's way down by the LBJ. You know.
ALLISON: Uh huh.
WEBB: It's way over there. You have to get permission and all kinds of things like that, but that is where the fantastic Sam Maverick papers are, too. That's Maury's grandfather. But all of Maury's papers are down there also. It's fantastic (laugh). And most of the scrapbooks I made for him while he was in Congress, and also while he was Mayor. Yes, a lot of that is down there. And I didn't make them really to put in any museum, there's a lot of personal stuff in it. But then that, I suppose, adds to it. So, but it's right there and anybody who is doing any work on the city of San Antonio or anything that Maury had to do with, should come here and get permission to, to go through those things. You can get in.
ALLISON: What kind of publicity did La Villita get while you, while it was being done?
WEBB: Well, I think it was pretty good. I don't remember, especially that it got anything particularly special, maybe it did or maybe it didn't, but I'm not sure that it was anything unusual. The local papers would have it. The Express file is here at the Library.
ALLISON: Again, what kind of publicity did La Villita get in the press?
WEBB: Oh, I think it got a good coverage . . . In those days, it was a sort of, beginning of, of, of a restoration, epidemic that has followed around in Tex . . . Oh, really not the real beginning of course, but, but to go around and look around before something was made into a parking lot or a hotel or something like that, to see if it could be saved and it . . . in Dallas, and we got some good publicity in Houston, also . . . You see, the Texas fight was around in the southern part of the state, don't you see. I mean . . .
ALLISON: What's that . . . the Texas fight?
WEBB: Well, I mean the Texas-Mexican battles. Don't you see, years ago? And we did most of our fighting around in the lower part of Texas, you know, in East Texas, around over in there, so that's the reason the people down here have more to do with it than they have to do up in Dallas because the Latin Americans are mostly down here towards the Rio Grande River. Don't you . . . ? That's where our fight was mostly. And the pioneers, of course, were up in there. They've got some wonderful museums up there in North Texas, now. Oh my, and the, the national park business is doing a great job in restoring, giving money and helping to, to preserve these earlier places around in Texas, especially this little wonderful ranch place up in northwest Texas. Wonderful work has been done. But . . . Maury introduced, though his name is not on the National Sites Bill in Washington. It was his baby bill. Mr., Dr. Joe Frantz has the material of it right now. Maury introduced it as a member of Congress for Mr. Harold Ickes, Secretary of the Interior. But the Chairman of the House Committee, as is usual, has his name on the bill. But I have the whole thing. It is not in my possession today because they asked for it here at the museum. And they have it, they are doing some research on it now. But Maury did introduce it. And because everybody knows about it, I know when I go to the National Trust, the oldsters who are still in it, will say something about Maury introducing that bill. And I did go out to New Mexico and I was one of the honor persons the first year after Maury died when they made an historic site and were dedicating it. Anything else you want to know?
ALLISON: Well, was there any criticism locally?
WEBB: Oh, no, he never got any credit locally.
ALLISON: Criticism!
WEBB: Oh, criticism.
ALLISON: I guess he got a lot of that (laugh).
WEBB: Oh, yes, oh, yes, he got plenty of criticism, but he got plenty of credit. He ran the city well. There were a lot of people who didn't like some of the things that he did and, and of course, there are. Lots of people remember nothing except the Auditorium situation; but that has nothing to do with historic preservation. As Mayor of San Antonio, Poor Devil, I remember that Auditorium night. You see, the Communist Party at that time was an official party and could legally be on the, on the voting ballot just like the Democrats and the Republicans. There was nothing he could do when they had been given permission to do it, they could MANDAMUS him and get it, and he wasn't going to, he wasn't going to have that happen, because they had done just that very thing in, in Oklahoma not long before and they won their case. So there wasn't anything else he could do. It was a very unfortunate thing. And I think most of the people in San Antonio are ashamed of the fracas now. Of course, they had a terrible riot there. That was before your day.
ALLISON: My mother said she thinks . . .
WEBB: Yes?
ALLISON: . . . she went down there and watched or booed herself (laugh).
WEBB: Uh, huh, oh yes, a lot of people did. Mary Aubrey said she wouldn't have missed it for anything, and, and the trouble of it is that, but it was a sad thing. Poor thing, oh, Maury hated it, but there wasn't anything he could do, he was not going to go against the National Government. They had won it in the Supreme Court, and they had applied and all of the requirements had been met, and everything and there wasn't anything else you could do. There were only 27 registered Communists or people present. It was just, oh, . . . but it was an apparently great thing for the Veterans of World War I and the Church and the different people to come and have a great thing. Oh, it was an exciting night. But, oh, but, it hurt Maury. Oh, brother, it hurt him. And we were at our house, and we could hear 'em all the way out there. Wasn't any use to go. Why should he go? But it was just pretty bad. I have the pictures, lot of the pictures and lot of the rioting and lot of the stuff is right here in the archives (snap of the fingers) at U.T.
ALLISON: But, do you think that the La, La Villita Song is in the archives?
WEBB: I don't know, and you know, my dear, I've lost it. I've lost, but it's around here some place. I have two copies of it. It ought to be in the City. I cannot believe that the City of San Antonio has people working for them who haven't kept the things that belong to the City. That song was copyrighted in the name of the City of San Antonio. It's the cutest thing. I'll find it, and it's just beautiful, and illuminated, illustrated all around by this famous artist who was assigned to La Villita, and he was the backbone of all the artistic things then. I can't think of his name, and that was one of the reasons I wanted to find it. It's just charming, and he did the whole thing. Oh, it's Blanding Sloan.
ALLISON: I wonder if it's one of the peoples that like the WPA sent in, their scholars and artists to research and then to make a booklet on La Villita?
WEBB: I, I . . . Wouldn't it be great? I wish they would. Well, they don't have the WPA now. You know like . . . We have to have a great emergency or depression for emergency legislation. I'm all for that type of solution because that's been one of the controversial things whether to give people work and that was a relief program just like dishing out money--but better, and like someone said, "You know, Michigan Avenue looked pretty good with people leaning on their shovels"--that beautiful Michigan Avenue in Chicago was done, every inch of it by WPA workers and the CCC, what was it . . . Civilian Conservation Corps or similar emergency agencies.
ALLISON: Un, huh.
WEBB: And America is proud of it now. Well, it's a great thing, historic restoration. I had forgotten, you know, giving credit for this and that and the other thing. I do with the Conservation Society, I wish we had, I said we, I was just a little bride at that time, I didn't participate very much. I just went because of Maury. Maury would go and I was busy, because I had babies, but I do think that the beginning movement and the restoration of that German section of the southern part of San Antonio is just charming. I took a teacher all through the section. A professor and I went over there some weeks ago this past winter for the Philosophical Meeting, and I remember (laugh). I'm a philosopher! I took them all out there and rode them all up and down the streets. It's just fantastic the way that's happened. If you've read anything in the in Aunt Ellen Slayden's book, Washington Wife, there is a section in there on the German part of San Antonio that you ought to read. She got in a little trouble at that time. It was World War I, don't you know. Things were a little delicate.
ALLISON: Un huh.
WEBB: And with, because you know, the Germans weren't very popular those days, don't you see? And they were good, good people, and just think what they have done and that whole section of San Antonio is just as interesting as any Latin American color, I think. It's charming. San Antonio is fortunate.
ALLISON: Do you have anything else to add that you think should be put down on La Villita?
WEBB: Well, oh, I don't know, I don't know, there are so many ideas, and so many angles to La Villita, that, that, it's hard to think of and I've been out of that for a long time, but I do know that, that if it hadn't been for Maury. Oh, there were a lot of generous people; the McAlilisters finally sold their house there on the corner and all of that, and, and . . . But, if it hadn't been for Maury, it never would have been saved. There is not question about it, because he was absolutely vigilant from morning till the night and that was the most important thing. In fact, a lot of people got kind of peeved at him for awhile because he wouldn't do anything else but save La Villita and arrange for the money because the City was broke. I do know it never would have happened without him; it never could have, have happened without him! It never could have because it had to be acted on then and now, and not two or three years hence because it would have been gone, and that's the only thing I feel. I loved it, he loved it, and the City now loves it. And I'm glad of it. By the way, you know those cannon out in front of the main entrance of Villita, the Maverick family gave them, put them in . They had them when Maury was born. His father, Albert, and his grandfather, Sam, were involved in the subject of the Alamo. Of course, Same wanted to live on the Alamo property, and, in this book here that I am showing you, this, this redo of Charles Ramsdell, it tells about Maury's grandfather. The pegs were in there. It was 218 Avenue E is where Maury was born and it's practically in the Alamo yard. So, anyway, La Villita to Maury was his child. And the City has been very kind, really they have. The, the only thing that I hate about it is they, they . . . it's really about the only thing he is remembered for. Because, he was so involved in the River and La Villita both. Incidentally, you know, we had a forester, too. He named him the City Forester. All those trees we moved in to Villita, they were never there originally. And I remember I was at the City Hall one day when the City Forester came by. Maury named him the City Forester just for the fun of it. He came by and drove the truck all around the City Hall bringing the trees to plant. We took some of those small oak trees from Brackenridge Park. You know that's the City's thing and he transplanted them in La Villita. but that was it, oh, he loved it, . . . I do think La Villita was his baby. And they admit, they have to admit that, and if they don't, it really doesn't matter.
ALLISON: No, I think they do.
WEBB: Oh, I hope they do because Maury did love it. Yes, I know it. But that's all, darling. We've both put in a good day's work.
ALLISON: Mrs. Webb is going to try to play the La Villita Song, copyrighted for the City.
WEBB: I'm going to try to find that music. It's here someplace, and we ought to find it because it's charming . . . I'm playing it by ear and if I stop in the middle of it (melody), let's see (melody) and then they have a grito (melody).
ALLISON: That's great.
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